00:00:00 Kent: Hello, everybody. I'm so excited to be joined today by my friend Ankita. Oh, shoot. I didn't practice your last name. I'm going to try it. Kukarni?

00:00:10 Ankita: Yes, you got it right.

00:00:12 Kent: Sweet. So, Ankita and I, I always like to say where we met. I think the first time we met in person, was it at RemixConf this year? Or at React Rally?

00:00:24 Ankita: Utah, Utah, yeah. Actually, I guess both were in Utah, right?

00:00:28 Kent: Yes.

00:00:29 Ankita: There was some conference in Utah that I'm forgetting.

00:00:32 Kent: Yeah, React Rally.

00:00:34 Ankita: React Rally, yes, oh my God, that's hilarious that I forgot already.

00:00:40 Kent: But I definitely have known you for longer. I'm trying to remember where our paths first crossed, but it must have been on Twitter, as it often is.

00:00:50 Ankita: Yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah. I think we did meet roughly at React Summit at some point.

00:00:57 Kent: Yes, I was thinking we actually had met before, back, that would have been, because I haven't been to Amsterdam since React Summit, which was like 2018 or something

00:01:08 Ankita: like that. Same, yeah. So, we go way back. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:01:15 Kent: So, Ankita, I think it'd be great for folks to get to know you a little bit. Could you introduce yourself?

00:01:21 Ankita: For sure, yeah. So, currently I am an educator. Just, I help developers level up through my technical content or leadership as well. And yeah, I've been working in tech for over a decade. So after I wanted to like sort of paid back because I really love

00:01:41 teaching and that's why I switched to being an educator in general. But yeah, I have, I started off my career, went to school for computer science and like sort of grew and climbed the ladder pretty quickly. So I've done all sorts of things like solution architect, staff developer. I was a technical

00:02:01 lead, engineering manager, then stepped into a director position. So all sorts of fun stuff. And I really enjoyed it. And I feel like I learned a lot doing all of that. So yeah, that's sort of like my experience. And again, like in terms of apps and stuff like that, like I have built and architected a lot of different apps with

00:02:22 like enabled developers doing the same thing, taking something like an MVP, like a minimal viable product all the way to production, which is also like really fun and helping them scale to millions of users as well. So yeah, anyway, I can go on and on about this, but I really, I feel like I've done a lot and I want to like sort of pay it forward now and teach other devs how to do

00:02:42 the same. So that's what I do.

00:02:44 Kent: That is so rad. So the thing that we're kind of dancing around a little bit is developer2leader.com, the course that you have recently launched, and that's your full-time thing now, is that right?

00:02:59 Ankita: Yes, exactly. I would say 1 of my full-time things, yeah.

00:03:03 Kent: But

00:03:03 Ankita: for sure, I plan to launch more courses like that just to help developers level up in their careers.

00:03:10 Kent: Yeah, awesome. So let's start with why, the Simon Sinek thing. So why should a web developer who enjoys coding and everything, why should they care or want to become a leader?

00:03:28 Ankita: For sure. I think that as we grow, our ambitions grow, as our drive to mentorship grows. And I think as we start to like mentor more folks, start leading small teams, we start to get to a point where I have learned a lot and now I want to enable others and that actually brings me more joy

00:03:48 compared to just writing code. Right. It's like I was writing code for so many years and then I'm like, I want a new challenge. I want something that I could like step into leadership and like help others do the same. And the challenges after you get into leadership are quite different. But as a developer, I think if you're curious about leadership,

00:04:09 start mentoring folks, start leading smaller teams, talk to your manager about it as well and see how you could gain those leadership opportunities in general. But again, you don't have to get the title or lead a team in general. You can also have those leadership qualities or responsibilities. And if you learn that, you'd be able to become a better

00:04:29 developer as well. So it's totally up to you. I feel like it doesn't have to be that. Once you get to staff level, you have to become a manager. You have to do this. I feel like it's like a pendulum, right? You can switch, keep switching back and forth and both of those skills complement each other.

00:04:48 Kent: Yeah, yeah, that makes total sense. And I think that it's valuable to also appreciate that if you want to make a big impact, you've got to be a leader. You only have 24 hours in a day and for you to be an effective person, you should use at least 8 of those for

00:05:08 sleep. And so, but you don't have a lot of time, but you can definitely accomplish way, way more if you're enabling other people through your leadership. And then also, like, the pay opportunity is greater as you take on, or as you create a bigger

00:05:28 impact as well. So, like, there's pretty selfish reasons to become a leader too.

00:05:34 Ankita: For sure, and I think I like the word that you use, impact, because that's something I wanna focus on a little bit as well. I think the ability to grow your impact and you are going to make decisions for your team, obviously after talking to them and collaborating with them. But you're basically making those decisions which can influence the future of the business and the company,

00:05:54 of the product, and not just that, but also like in a developer world and how tech evolves and whatnot too. And I think that translates really well. So having that skill set in general is like really crucial for you to actually keep growing and leveling up in general.

00:06:11 Kent: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay, So what is it that people need to actually learn about being a leader? Isn't it just like a thing, there are natural born leaders, and if you're not a leader, then you can't lead people, or is this something you can actually learn?

00:06:29 Ankita: Yeah, for sure. I think definitely leadership is a skill set. And I think the things that you need to do to become a leader is actually start doing it, honestly. It's just like start with mentoring folks, start with understanding like how you can enable others. So whatever path that you have taken so far, what is it

00:06:49 that you can draw from your experience to showcase it to others and help teach others as well? But in terms of leadership, in order to become a leader as well, after, what is it that your responsibilities are like? Like what are some of the expectations from you? What is the, I would say like,

00:07:09 I think it's called the 80-20 rule, like what is the 20% of effort that you could, you know, draw into that would result into 80% of outcomes, for example, right? So that's something that you need to keep thinking about as a leader in general. Like you don't need to, you don't need to think about taking on really massive projects, but keep

00:07:29 thinking about the growth of the company and the growth of your team in general to help enable them.

00:07:36 Kent: Yeah, I think that even if you decide you don't want to be a leader from a management perspective, understanding the business and the mission of the company and all of that will make you way, way more effective at getting whatever you want at the company. Like if you really

00:07:56 feel like it's important for you to migrate from your old Create React app over to Remix, for example. Like that's gonna cost the business some time and resources and stuff to do that. But if you really understand the business, then you can make a business case for why doing something like that is necessary.

00:08:17 Ankita: 100% and I think that if you know what those goals are for the quarter, right, goals for the year as well, then taking something like Create React Capital Remix, you can sort of draw like a roadmap for the leadership team to understand and start plotting it in quarters to help get you there. And at the same time, depending on

00:08:37 where your product is at the time as well, right, like then you can sort of plan it out accordingly. And that's also like technical leadership, right? Like understanding what's the complexity in something like that is, and then planning it out and dividing it into milestones for developers

00:08:58 to sort of achieve that, but also like getting the entire team together to understand how can we slowly roll it out to everyone else so that it makes a lot of sense as well. So yeah, 100%.

00:09:09 Kent: Totally, totally. So now a lot of people will think about leadership and they're like, oh, but Leadership, that means that you spend less time coding and you spend more time with people. And I got into coding because I don't want to spend time with people or whatever. But like your experience that you said, like you were a tech lead and you were

00:09:29 a staff engineer and a dev manager all over the place. And each 1 of those required leadership. So let's talk a little bit to the person who's like, I just really like coding and I just wanna get my tasks and implement them and go home and do whatever I want. So why should somebody like that become a leader?

00:09:50 And I suppose also, is it the concern of, well, I just wanna keep coding, I don't wanna be a leader cause I don't wanna stop coding. Is that like a legit concern or Is there a misunderstanding there?

00:10:03 Ankita: I would say maybe a little bit of misunderstanding. Like I think that, I guess like the higher up you go and if you're coding and being the VP of engineering, then obviously that's a problem, right? Because you have a lot of other responsibilities.

00:10:16 Kent: And it depends on the size of the company too, right?

00:10:19 Ankita: Like if it's a small company,

00:10:20 Kent: a CTO probably codes a lot too.

00:10:22 Ankita: Exactly, so it depends on the size of the company as well. But I feel like this is honestly like a myth that you have to stop coding after you do it. Because if you stop coding, or if you don't know what the architecture looks like, how are you going to lead being a technical leader, you know, in general, right? So it's, I think that you don't have to stop coding, but you

00:10:42 have to prioritize your time accordingly, right? Like you cannot spend 100% of your time coding, but maybe you would go down to 40% of your time coding and 60% of your time like leading and enabling others and helping others make those decisions that you have learned how to make them as well. Right, so I would say like, it's definitely something you don't

00:11:02 have to stop coding, you can always code. And there are also different archetypes as well. Like you said, different companies have different sort of roles. So if it's a smaller company, you will be coding a lot more and that will be expected out of you, as along with leadership and things like that. And in that case, you're probably,

00:11:22 your archetype would be like a tech lead manager or some sort, right? Or like a technical lead more so. But if you like, you go to a medium sized company, then it sort of changes, right? So depending on the company and what you're looking to do, it changes, but you don't have to stop going, because if you do, I think that you get so far removed from

00:11:42 it that you're unable to understand and empathize the problems. Like for example, this plugin breaks all the time. I'm wasting so much time on it. If you don't understand what the plugin does, how the architecture works and whatnot, then you wouldn't be able to empathize. You just feel like, oh, this developer is just stuck on the specific problem, right? But like if you're able

00:12:03 to understand it a lot more, then it sort of helps in general. So yeah, I think it's important that you have that balance and understand that where you should be spending more time. And every week is gonna be different, right? Like maybe there's an important problem and things are not going as smooth as you would like, then

00:12:23 maybe your leadership would actually help others, versus you coding at the time. And every week depends and it differs from week to week. So you have to sort of like prioritize and understand. And as a leader, I think that is also another important quality that to understand where to invest your time in. Where should your team invest your time

00:12:43 in as well? Like, for example, if you wanna, you know, if you wanna like migrate to a specific technology or whatever, then you need to understand what are the pros and cons of it. Is it a good time? Where is the business at? And so on. And accordingly, guide the team and lead them in general. So I think there are a few things, but you don't

00:13:03 have to like stop coding at all. But at the same time that to answer your other question, like if someone is already coding and they're just like, you know what, I don't want to code. I don't want to stop coding at all. I only want to focus on code. I never want to deal with people. Honestly, that's fine too. But remember that you're still working in a team. So

00:13:23 you are going to deal with people and the higher up you go, it doesn't matter. You don't even have to take a managerial position or even a leadership position rather, but even as a senior developer, the expectation would be for me to enable others, to lead others, help others and so on. So even though you would know, majority, the main responsibility would be coding, you're still participating

00:13:43 in code reviews and making sure that, you know, you, it's a collaborative environment and you are actually giving feedback to help others grow. And all those things also plays a role in leadership, right? So I think knowing that, learning the basics of leadership would really help you become a better developer in general. If you just keep coding,

00:14:04 then you are, I guess, so far removed from the big picture aspect of it, which is that, why am I coding this? Like, why me? What's my skill set going to, how is my skill set going to help the business, right? But if you know, okay, the reason why I'm adding this specific, I guess,

00:14:24 I don't know, the reason I'm adding, making all the products accessible is so that I, all, more users and all users can, you know, use our product compared to not. Right. And then suddenly you will start thinking of accessibility in a different lens because you wouldn't necessarily think of it like, Oh, yeah, we're just adding

00:14:44 a bunch of properties, right. Or we're not just testing it using a screen reader. And that just will sort of turn into, I understand why, and the impact of it going back to our previous conversation would grow because that does bring in more users, that makes it an inclusive environment for everyone.

00:15:04 Your product is usable by others. You will get more feedback and all that good stuff. So knowing all that big picture also helps you to become a leader in general. So I, in the, in the past, in my teams in general, like I've definitely asked devs to start taking, slowly start taking like a little bit of leadership responsibility so

00:15:24 that they can start empathizing what, when I'm, let's say even when I'm asking for something, It's not an unreasonable ask, it's because of why. Why are we doing this, right? And I think all that ties in really well together.

00:15:37 Kent: Yeah, yeah. I think that, like, I mean, there are a lot of great things that you said, but I think that understanding the business is part of what we do as developers. Even if what you enjoy is the coding aspect, you're not going to be able to be very effective at ignoring

00:15:58 the business. You will just not be an effective engineer. You probably won't enjoy it as much. And so yeah, having that understanding. There probably aren't a lot of people who are gonna watch this who are like, I wanna go on the management track and like, I don't wanna code at all, right? Because if they're going through Epic Web, they probably wanna be able to code

00:16:18 a little bit. But there could be some people who are like, yeah, as soon as I get into coding, I'm going, and like, or as soon as I get into the management track, I don't wanna touch code ever again. So you kind of talked a little bit about why it's important for you to be able to empathize with the developers and

00:16:38 stuff. I guess I'm not sure we need to go too much deeper on that. But do you have any other thoughts for that person who's thinking that they just wanna go into the management track and they wanna kind of ignore the technical aspect of their skills.

00:16:54 Ankita: I would say, I mean, there's obviously room for everyone in tech, right? Like if that's the type of leader you wanna be, I think you should then accordingly find a company that will allow for that, for example. And that is you need to have stronger technical leaders in the team and potentially staff developers as well, so that you can take a

00:17:14 step back completely from coding and lean on their expertise and your job would be to fully enable them, right? And like your team and helping them step up even more than before because you don't want to specifically code or you don't want to get into those discussions or whatever, but then that means you need to hire,

00:17:35 right? You need to make sure that the people are something that you can trust in your team. But yeah, there's room for everyone, but I think you need to find a team and a company that allows for that. It'd be very clear when you interview there, or even if you're an existing company, make sure you move into the team there. Because in a lot of companies, it's common

00:17:55 that leaders should be technical, sort of. But I know that A lot of companies don't have that. And I think you need to find those accordingly.

00:18:04 Kent: Yeah, that makes sense. So do you have any, well, I'm sure you do have many, you have an entire course of tips on ways that, or things that people can do to start taking on more leadership roles. Like maybe they're on a team where there are more experienced engineers and so they are

00:18:24 always the ones getting the higher impact work. This was me in my early career. I always felt like other people were getting the higher impact work that I wanted. What tips do you have for people to get that higher impact work and start getting into some of those leadership roles?

00:18:43 Ankita: Mm-hmm, for sure. I think it's obviously the first step would be to look in your team and see it, look for those opportunities, talk to your manager about it. But let's say you don't, I think I truly believe in paving your own path and like owning your own career, for example. So in that case, I would look beyond and look in the company in general, like

00:19:04 what is something that you can get involved, where you can help draw impact. And a lot of companies that are guilds, for example, where there are specific things that the people in those guilds are trying to focus, you can start showcasing the leadership there by first being a good participant and then slowly taking on more responsibility and

00:19:24 building trust with everyone else as well. So that is a good opportunity. But the other 1 is also like open source, right? Like try creating more open source projects, but also like help contribute there as well, because that is also going to immediately show your impact because you are no longer focusing on just what your work is

00:19:44 as, but also like what, what is happening externally. The other ways, and I think this is like maybe less known, but start blogging and start writing about how you think, what are the challenges you are coming across and how exactly can you have solved them that can help others because that is

00:20:04 also showing impact there because that blog is going to read be read by so many developers and leaders in general. And like you are going to help, you know, showcase our leadership skills there as well. Speak at conferences. Like all these things also like will help you become a leader because that showcases that you

00:20:24 are taking control of your own career, doing things that are sort of out of the box and like helping, drawing attention to yourself. So in the future, when there's a project in the company and whatnot, they already know that you have been doing this on what your thoughts are in general. Because again, I don't want to focus too much on

00:20:44 like, You have to speak on conferences, but it's a topic, right? Let's say you talked about performance on a specific, I don't know, I have my talk coming up, performance in React Native, for example. If that's a topic that you're passionate about, now everyone knows that that's a topic you're passionate about, right? So definitely that. The other thing I would also say

00:21:05 is start building your brand. Pick something that you're really passionate about, something that you can rave about when you're having lunch with your coworkers or your friends and you just wanna just talk about that all the time. Think about that. It could be SEO, it could be accessibility, it could be React, React Native, performance,

00:21:25 any of this, any of this in general, and start building deep expertise and knowledge in that because once you are able to get really good at your craft you automatically build trust to be able to again take on more leadership in that role right like for example if you know a lot about performance or

00:21:45 in notifications even like anything you know like very niche right but let's say that company your company is is does need that specific expertise. Then they're immediately going to pull you that, pull you into that team and start help, you know, you are going to start helping others because again, you have gained so much knowledge,

00:22:06 but also like help others do like, it doesn't need to be that you only focus on your team in general, but also start helping others in company wide, see what questions come up, see what problems people are solving, and try to think of the big picture again, right? And start showcasing your impact there.

00:22:26 Again, that it will help you get into that leadership position. And All of these things is something that I did because I was in a similar position as you, Kent, where you mentioned like, I was not getting the work. I was not, I was way too early in my career and there were too many talented folks at my team which I learned a ton from, but I

00:22:46 wasn't getting it. And I was like, how can I showcase my impact? I started blogging, then I started giving conference talks, then I started just talking to people and just helping them in general also goes a long way because they're going to remember that you went out of your way to help them, right? And all these just add to you becoming a leader because

00:23:06 leadership is also serving other people, right? You are helping enable others. And all these qualities do like quickly compound and will help you as well.

00:23:17 Kent: Oh, that is all such great advice. And I can see my own career in lots of the tips that you gave. So like the company that I was at, where I wasn't feeling like I was getting any opportunities, I left that company because I gave a meetup talk or gave a couple meetup talks and

00:23:37 I was recruited away because of those meetup talks. And where I was recruited to, I was given like 20% of my time to do architect level stuff. And so I was able to start doing more leadership stuff. And another example, when I was still in school, I kind of became the AngularJS expert because

00:23:57 I ran this workshop for my classmates. I got Firebase to sponsor us some pizza and stuff. It was pretty cool. But after we graduated, I had a friend who needed somebody who was an AngularJS expert to build a UI for them and guess who they called? They called the person they remembered, was really good at

00:24:17 that. And so, and then, you know, on that project, I was the tech lead for an AngularJS project. I was the only front end developer, but I was the lead. And so I think that that makes a lot of sense. And I say this often, but you can be the best

00:24:37 software developer in the world, but if nobody knows, you're never gonna get the opportunities that you're looking for. And so I 100% agree that being kinda noisy about your skills and your accomplishments is really valuable in this industry. I always want to caveat that

00:24:57 by saying that you want to avoid being noisy or taking credit for other people's work.

00:25:04 Ankita: Yeah.

00:25:05 Kent: While you're doing that too. And I think that's actually another quality of a leader is being able to give credit where it's due. People aren't going to want to follow you again if you take credit for all their work.

00:25:19 Ankita: 100%. Now, yeah. And I think it's important that you take ownership of your work and give credit to other people as well. But yeah, I think 1 of the points that you mentioned, like even in a company, again, like another team that I was in, I was surrounded by so many talented developers who had like 20, 30

00:25:39 years of experience and I'm like, there's no way I'm going to be able to lead a project because I was really interested in leading a project and showcasing my skill set and ability. And I just went to my manager and I said, and again, I have a transparent conversation with your manager too, about your goals. I just said, there's no reason for you to trust me right now because I just joined the team 2

00:25:59 months ago. I've done some work, but not enough for you to trust me. But if you find a smaller project that I could lead, I can show you what I know. And you can have someone as a backup as well if you want. But I have experience in this area by doing this and this and this. And I literally presented a PowerPoint

00:26:20 presentation at the time. Wow. Like showcasing all my skillset and why I deserve it. He was really impressed and then I think a month later he gave me a smaller project, which is again, a week long engagement. This was when I worked at IBM, and the client was really happy with me. I enabled all

00:26:40 the developers, I think at the time in Angular, and like really helped them create an app, enable them, educated them, and they were all very happy and excited. And they also signed another engagement with IBM because of this smaller 1.

00:26:55 Kent: Nice, good job.

00:26:55 Ankita: Because they got a taste of what it was like working with IBM devs, I guess. But again, I'm not sharing this to brag, but I'm sharing this that I didn't have an opportunity there with 20 or 30 years of developers. I just paved my path and tried to ask for it,

00:27:15 and I delivered when that opportunity was presented. And I think that's the thing that you need to grab and like keep looking for. It's like, I feel like you will get a lot if you just ask for it. Because no one's going to read your mind. But if you ask for it, then you are going to get way further in life as well.

00:27:34 Kent: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes tons of sense. Well, this has been an awesome conversation, Ankita. Is there anything else that you really feel like we should talk about before we wrap things up?

00:27:46 Ankita: I don't think so. I just feel like, you know, I think some of the things that we talked about Like I would also look for like let's say if you're seriously, you know, you're seriously serious If you're serious about becoming a manager or leader in general Then you know follow a roadmap and I have it I have 1 I can share with you, Kent, as

00:28:06 well. Follow a roadmap just like we would in a big app when you're trying to become developers, like the things that you need to do, just like in your course as well, right? Because I think having that career path and having that roadmap will help guide you to know what success should look like every step of the way. And you are not feeling like,

00:28:26 oh, I don't know what I'm doing because you're suddenly in this new position. So yeah, that would be something that I would share with you.

00:28:33 Kent: Yeah, I think that's a great idea. Thank you so much for that. So your website is developer2leader.com. Folks can go take a look at that. Is there any other place that you wanna direct folks to keep up with what you're working on and reach out to you if they have questions.

00:28:51 Ankita: Yeah, I would just say my website as well, kulkarniangita.com, but also like follow me on X. I just feel weird saying that. Follow me on Twitter, no X.

00:29:05 Kent: Sounds good. Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to chat with you. And thanks everybody for watching. We'll see you later.

00:29:12 Ankita: Thank you for having me.